Woodland Walks podcast

You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust, presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive.

Nile: But it just made me feel so good. It was so real, it was almost like a drug. So my parents were doing heroin, I was doing music *laughs*.

Nile: So I always thought that an artist was the guy trying to be the smartest person in the room, that everybody said, ‘well, I wish I could play like him, I wish I could do that’. No, it was the person who touched people's hearts.

Nile: We actually had them locked out the studio because we still hadn't finished the lyrics to We Are Family.

Nile: Trees do, all plants, but trees, you know, especially, do so much for life. Let's not just talk about the overall environment, life, all life forms that exist.

Adam: For 40 years, if you've been on a dance floor, you'll have been dancing to the music of one of our guests today. He co-founded Chic, produced and collaborated with David Bowie, Madonna, Richard Jackson, and well, to be honest, too many others to mention. But to give you an idea of the sort of musical success he's had, I can say that he has produced and performed on records which have sold more than 750 million albums and 100 million singles. Born to teenage parents in an environment where drug use was very much part of his every day, he has come from that background with an attitude to life which is as upbeat and as positive as his music. And together with his partner, Nancy Hunt, they have established the We Are Family Foundation, focused on empowering young people around the world. Together, they're in Northern Ireland, in Derry, to support and protect and indeed restore woodland in this country, and indeed Nile is on the Woodland Walks sofa and joined by one of the trustees of the We Are Family Foundation and indeed the Woodland Trust, David. So we'll come to David in a moment. Why don't we start now where it all started with the music? Reading about you and listening to stuff you've done, my impression is you're the most positive person I've read about and that surprises me because of the disjointed background you grew up in. So two questions. Do you think that's a fair description and if so, why?

Nile: So the... the interesting thing about my childhood was that though my parents were heroin addicts, they were extremely loving and they believed in me so much so that, believe it or not, I was never, ever told what to do. They knew that I instinctively would figure it out. Or I was just one of those nerdy, nice kids that they knew would never get into trouble. I mean, I have never stolen anything. I've never, I bullied one kid once and the reason why is because everybody bullied me because I was a nerd. And when I bullied this kid, he started crying and I started crying. He's probably forgotten that incident. I will never forget it. It'll bother me my entire life. I could not believe that I did that. So my childhood was actually on one level very happy, but at the exact same time, and I don't know how these two situations could have coexisted, except only now forensically, but it was super happy, but then I actually called my childhood a fear-based childhood. I was afraid of things, so I did things to make me unafraid or happy. And music was that thing. But it just made me feel so good. It was so real. It was almost like a drug. So my parents were doing heroin. I was doing music *laughs*.

Adam: I mean, it's weird you describe yourself as a nerd. You're the least nerdy-looking nerd I've ever come across, but fair enough.

Nile: Oh God, test me.

Adam: Oh really, okay, we'll do a nerd off *both laugh*. Fair, fair enough. But that positivity, I mean, you talk about being nice, but what I think is striking about your music, and perhaps problematic for some of it, is that it's relentlessly positive. And I think sometimes it's seen as sort of very surface level because of that and yet you talk about the deeper meaning behind the music, which I think some fans of yours perhaps don't see, or that's not what they're getting from it.

Nile: But that's okay, though.

Adam: That's fine.

Nile: It's okay. Yeah, you're so correct. I mean, I'll try and quickly just tell you this story. So when I said I was a nerd, believe me, I studied music on a level that was so intense, that was ridiculous. So I thought it was my job to prove to my tutors and various teachers how smart I was, how well I learned the rules and the discipline of music. I wrote symphonic music when I was a child, I wasn't even 10 years old yet. And I remember I was going to one of my tutors. I was around 22 years old and I was a very serious jazz student. And I went into him one day with a very sourpuss attitude and look, and that was not me. He just was like, no, you're always so happy and you're always so upbeat. What's wrong with you today? And I said, well, look at this ******** pop music that I have to play tonight. Now, maybe I thought it was sort of ******** but maybe I was just trying to score brownie points with him because I always thought being a great musician was being the smartest guy or the greatest virtuoso in the room. So what happened was my teacher, I showed him the list of songs that I was playing that night. And I said, look at what I have to start my set with. This song by The Archies called Sugar, Sugar. He said, yeah, but now what's wrong? Why are you so sad? And I said, because I got to play Sugar, Sugar. You know, I want to play straight ahead jazz. He was like, that's okay that you want to play straight ahead jazz, that's what I love. But why is it bothering you to play Sugar, Sugar? And I said, because it goes, *sings* Honey, do, do, do, do, do, do, oh sugar, sugar, do, do, do, do, do, do, you are my candy girl, and you got me wanting you. And he said, Nile, that's a great composition. I went, you call Sugar, Sugar a great composition? He said, absolutely. He said, what do you think about it? He says, and I went, well, it sucks. It's some ******** bubblegum pop music. And he went, now, do you know that Sugar Sugar's been number one for about three weeks? And I said, yeah, but what does that got to do with anything? And he went, so those millions of people around the world, they're wrong, but you, Nile Rodgers, are right? And all of a sudden I felt, uh-oh, *laughs* something weird's getting ready to happen. So he held me behind my head and he pulled my face close to him and he said, Nile, let me explain something to you. Every record in the top 20 is a great composition. And so remember, we're going back now 50 years. I'm 73 years old, so we're going back a long time. And I say, every record in the top 20 is a great composition? He says, yes. I said, why would you say something so absurd? He says, Nile, because it speaks to the souls of a million strangers. And I literally started crying at that moment because in one spark, in a nanosecond, he explained to me what an artist was. So I always thought that an artist was the guy trying to be the smartest person in the room, that everybody said, well, I wish I could play like him. I wish I could do that. No, it was the person who touched people's hearts. It was the person who made people feel something, be it happiness, be it sadness or whatever. But a lot of my friends who are virtuosos, we just would go, wow, he can play his *** off. That was the thing. We didn't feel anything necessarily. Sometimes we did, but I was determined to try and make people feel something every time. And to me, I wanted people to feel happy because I wanted to feel happy. Why do I want to write sad music?

Adam: So that phrase, speaking to the souls of a million strangers, it's clearly an iconic thing about your music. The other striking thing, I think, which you've talked about, is about life, not just your music, but I think obviously connected, is not about surviving the storm, but learning how to dance in the rain. Is that one of the tenets of your approach to music and life? Are they the same thing?

Nile: That's exactly it. That's why people wonder why I do so much music, and it's because I believe that I could always, I honestly, and this is not an egotistical statement, I always believe that I can add something to the song. I believe that I can make it better, even if it's just a little better, but you can hear it. I mean, five minutes before I came down here, I asked an artist that I sent a piece of music to, I said, you never wrote me back. How do you feel about the guitar streams that I sent you? And Kygo just wrote me, he said, he just literally just wrote me, where the hell is it? I went, cool. He went, oh, yes sir, sounding really cool *laughs*. Minutes ago.

Adam: Okay. So look, we need to talk more about that, but I want, you're here not for the music, but for the work of your, and Nancy, your partner's, foundation. And David Saddington, sitting next to you, is a trustee of that foundation. You also happen to be a trustee of the Woodland Trust as well. So the purpose of the We Are Family Foundation is what?

David: I mean, the We Are Family Foundation, Nile and Nancy started 20, 25 years ago now, which is insane *both laugh*. And Nile, I mean, you'll tell it better than me in terms of sort of your origin story, which came from, you know, a horrendous event of 9/11. And Nile and Nancy wanted to do something positive for the world, to heal the world. And thankfully, you know, when they sort of asked that question around how do we sort of have more peace in the world, how do we have more harmony, young people came out as the answer and actually finding that hope, finding that positivity, finding those solutions. So the foundation really is built upon curating, nurturing and growing this talent and giving these young people visibility.

Adam: And the work that the We Are Family Foundation is starting to do in Northern Ireland, we were today at a planting with Nile and Nancy and you. What is the project here?

David: Yeah, my God, like, you know, I work on climate change every day. It's really sort of hard and difficult, but actually by doing something very local with the Woodland Trust, you make such a tremendous difference, not only just about place, but the communities which you bring along. So this partnership just made a lot of sense. And then when we started talking after that visit around sort of why it made sense to support from the foundation, Northern Ireland came out really as a winner. And the beautiful site we visited earlier in the Faughan Valley is so special because, in a sad way really, because so little of the ancient woodland is left in Northern Ireland, less than 1%. And the vision of the Woodland Trust in Northern Ireland to preserve those tiny fragments of ancient woodland, but protect them by restoring the land around it, letting them expand, is so special. And particularly given that site is, what, I mean, like 10 minutes away from Derry? That's so cool. It is right on the doorstep of so many people to restore such a precious habitat, but make sure that people can actually enjoy it and be part of that as well. Amazing.

Adam: A little before Nile and I sat down to speak, we both visited Faughan Valley Woodlands with a group of young people who were there to help plant some trees. Now, this is an important area. Since 2000, the Woodland Trust has brought small clusters of native woodlands, including Brackfield, Oaks, Red Brae, Burntollet, Killaloo and Auter, all fragmented along the Faughan Valley, which is a site of special scientific interests. And it's been a vision of the Woodland Trust Northern Ireland for well over a decade, really, to try and connect these fragments for both people and nature. And so when I met the younger people who are busy planting trees, I asked them why they felt what they were doing was important.

Speaker 1: So usually it's around every Sunday morning. We go around and it's just odd jobs, like it's never the same thing every week. It's usually planting trees, but recently we've been building fences to keep sheep out and removing tree guards.

Adam: And why are you interested in that instead of watching TV or playing Xbox or whatever?

Speaker 1: Well, I've always kind of liked outdoorsy stuff in nature and usually I wouldn't really do much on a Sunday. So it's just better to get out rather than do nothing on a Sunday morning so.

Adam: And you're about to plant a tree.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Adam: Do we know what type of tree that is?

Speaker 1: I think it's oak.

Adam: Oh, there we are see, I don't know, but you know, go on plant away.

Speaker 2: I'm Sophie McGee.

Adam: And what are you doing, Sophie?

Speaker 2: Well, we're planting trees today for the 30th anniversary. It's just more interesting because we're actually doing something that's worthwhile for the environment and for ourselves.

Adam: And do you feel you're making a difference?

Speaker 2: Yes, every tree will help. No matter if it's a wee tiny stick or a big massive one.

Speaker 3: Well my name is Evie, I'm 13 years old and I've always been interested in nature and plants and animals and stuff and then my auntie decided, or she showed me the Woodland Trust young volunteers so I thought that sounds right up my street. So I joined, I've only been here for a few weeks and so far I've really enjoyed it. We've been trimming down, we've been trimming away trees that'll grow back to let light into the forest floor. We've been looking at different kinds of moths and caterpillars and we've been for walks and here we are planting trees and meeting celebrities!

Speaker 4: My name's Milo and you know we're with the Woodland Trust, you know, planting trees and stuff because, well, you know, trees are important and they support a lot of species and insects and wildlife and it's great for the water quality and soil erosion in general. And in my opinion personally, I think biodiversity is really important, especially in, the UK and Northern Ireland in general. It's just seem to be really sort of nature depleted and, you know, I kind of want to change that. I think it doesn't seem fair, you know?

Adam: Nile, I think the phrase we've already used many times is We Are Family, the name of one of your most successful songs, but obviously the name of your foundation. And we've talked about your family. That's an obvious theme, family. I'm struck by that because of a disjointed background, even though loving and literarily full. Your family were artists and you had a full and rich literary life. The connection to family, clearly a theme for you. Why?

Nile: It wasn't my idea. It was other people's ideas. And they talked me into it. I, as an artist, I wrote We Are Family for Sister Sledge and for Sister Sledge alone. I didn't write it for the world. I wrote it for them. And they, it was their job to now take it out into the world, which they did very well. But what happened as a byproduct of the composition was just the love that I put into the song that my partner Bernard Edwards and I put into the song, we were trying to talk about this wonderful family, you won't believe this, that we never met. We never met Sister Sledge until they came in to sing the song. The entire album was already produced. We didn't know any other way to make records except for by ourselves. So we made the record and said, okay, now sing this. And they were like, what? We've never been treated like this. We're like, we don't know any other way to make records. Me and Luther Vandross and Bernard Edwards and Tony Thompson, and we go in and we write and produce, and there you go, here's your record. But so the love that we projected onto Sister Sledge was something that we superimposed upon them. We don't know whether they liked each other or not. We just presupposed that they did. And that's what we wrote, this loving, anthemic, wonderful dance song. And Kathy Sledge, at 15 years old, came in and just gave the performance of her life. We actually had them locked out the studio because we still hadn't finished the lyrics to We Are Family *both laugh*. It was the final song that we wrote, right? So we wouldn't let them come in. We're inside trying to be professional. And they're like, why can't we come in and hear what you guys are making as demos? Making as demos? No, we made, it's the record. But anyway, what happened was, as a result of the popularity of the song, this baseball team in America, the Pittsburgh Pirates, adopted it as their theme song. And they're not women, they're men. And we saw these big burly men going, we are family, I got all my sisters with me. And I was like, whoa. And anyway, they won the World Series *laughs*.

Adam: But I mean, that's a fascinating insight how you made that song. But what I'm struck by is that you have talked about this deeper hidden meaning, your phrase, right, behind your songs. So that's an obvious question to ask. You talk about family. It's a key song in your career. It hints of the deeper meaning here is about the importance of your family. And your family are unusual. Super talented people, not particularly stable, I hope that's not insulting or anything. But it's sort of, I'd expect you to maybe be more traumatised by that or to have, but no, it's all good. It's all good.

Nile: It wasn't, you see, it wasn't traumatic because I developed my own survival mechanism and it was actually good. But I don't think you realise this. I said, everybody told me, oh, you got Grammys, you got this, you're the head of the Songwriters Hall of Fame, you're the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, I said, you know what? The thing that I am the most proud of in my life is at seven years old, I set the national truancy record for the United States of America *both laugh*. I cut school 75 days in a row and went to the movies. I learned more at the cinema in 75 days than everybody in my class learned in an entire semester. You could see Fellini, you could see Truffaut, you could see anything. My mom, when she had her second child, suffered from postpartum depression and threatened to murder my brother every day. So after a few weeks, and I can't remember how long it took because I was a child, but after her going to psychiatrist every day, that's how bad it was, they decided that she had to be separated from her children. She was a danger to herself and others. So they sent me off to Los Angeles to live with my maternal grandmother. And my youngest brother, who was just born, was sent to live with his paternal grandparents. And so while I was in Los Angeles, I was treated ah man, boy, talk about bullying. Every place in LA was sort of run by gangs. And I didn't know anything about the gang culture. And I spoke like a New Yorker. And everybody in LA was, you know, street slang. And, you know, and now look at how big hip hop is. You know, that's the way that that everyone spoke. I didn't know half the stuff they were saying. So kids would try and beat me up. They only beat me up once, no, twice, sorry, twice. And then I just decided, I'm not going to where those kids are. I'm going to where adults are. Because I got along with adults and I went to the cinema every day for 75 days straight.

Adam: There's lots to talk about, not much time. But I do want to ask one more question around this sort of area. In actually the podcast we've just done, I spoke to quite a significant business leader who has ADHD. And I said to him at the end of the chat we had, if you had a magic wand and could wave away your ADHD, would you do it? And he went, no, I absolutely wouldn't do it because it's part of who I was, I am, and it's informed and helped me. And I wonder if there's a similar question about your drug past, whether if you could wipe it away, would you?

Nile: Never, never, ever, ever, ever. I, you know, I developed a very horrible drug habit. I actually, my heart stopped six times in one night. I don't remember the medical phrase, but it's called something like multiple drug interaction. Like, so if you take cocaine and then you take alcohol and then you take either LSD or something else, your brain doesn't know which one is dominant, right? So it starts going, it tells your heart, do I expand or contract? I don't know. And every time they tried to revive me, I would only stay alert or alive, my heart would only pump a couple of times and then stop again.

Adam: So what did that bring you as an artist in retrospect?

Nile: Nothing. Because to me, all I remember was driving home, Not getting into an accident, not getting a ticket, driving home, parking in my same parking space, going up to my apartment. However, I mistakenly pushed the number 14 instead of 28. That saved my life. I didn't know that I did, I didn't know I made a mistake. I was so high, I thought 14 was 28. The way that they emptied the garbage in my building, they started at the top and they went down floor by floor. When the elevator hit 14, the doors opened, I fell out onto the floor dead. They just happened to be on the 14th floor and they saw me lying there dead. They go over, I have no pulse. They probably tried to do, I don't know any of this for a fact because I was, out, yeah. So I just assumed they must have tried to help me. They liked me, so they must have tried to do something. Fortunately, the hospital was two blocks away from my house. And they get me to the hospital. The doctors revived me six times. After the sixth time, they figured this is hopeless because they did everything they could possibly do. And he said that, we worked so hard to save your life, but in fact, I was filling out the death certificate and the orderly in the room said, hey doc, we got a live one here. And my heart just started going automatically again by itself.

Adam: Amazing. I want to bring you back to your foundation. So we're here because of the good work you're doing for the environment. But the environmental issue may be relatively new, but you've been a political activist since your early days. This is not a recent conversion. You're super plugged in to these sort of big debates, aren't you? Part of the Black Panthers in your early age?

Nile: Yeah, I was a subsection of the Black Panther Party when I was 16 years old.

Adam: So lots of political issues. Why now the environment?

Nile: It's just one of many issues that We Are Family Foundation supports. You asked me about being a nerd. So I grew up as a scientist. I have a scientific background. So I understand how these things in our environment are fundamentally to life itself. That, if you think about it, in today's world, there are a million different species on this planet, but that's only 1% of all the life that's ever lived on this planet. So it just goes up and down and up and down. And prior to humans, we were never the cause. Now we're the cause of things dying and species going away. Before, it was just the fact that Earth was this very volatile planet and over millions, billions, in fact, years, things were changing. But now we're doing the bad stuff. We're killing ourselves, which is incredible. And it's mainly because most people don't know that all these life forms are dependent upon one another. Last night I heard someone talking about plankton. And I was saying, yeah, well, look at how important plankton is. You know, like hydrogen, we need, we don't have hydrogen, we have no life. You know, it's like, so, I mean, trees do, all plants, but trees, you know, especially, do so much for life. Let's not just talk about the overall environment, life, all life forms that exist.

Adam: We're running out of time. Just one last question each. David, first, you set the context of what that foundation is doing here and what the Trust is doing here. What are your hopes for if Nile, us, we all gather, come back in ten years' time? Your hope for the project by then would be what?

David: I mean, my hope for the project in that time is to see the forest grow, because what I find so encouraging is when you let nature recover with a little bit of help from us, it doesn't take that long to actually start putting it right, you know, to restore those habitats, to protect that ancient woodland, to let it regrow, rejuvenate, with the help of people supporting communities at the same time. It can recover in such a remarkable amount of time, which I just find really quite hopeful and empowering in the world we're in at the moment. Will it restore very precious nature here in Northern Ireland? Will it inspire people to make a difference with all the volunteers we're bringing in? Absolutely. And who knows what the catalytic sort of nature of that will be, which I think is sort of magical to see. So it's a pleasure to bring this partnership together between the We Are Family Foundation and the Woodland Trust and see that grow and grow over the years.

Adam: And I think often with trees, people think it's 100 years, their great-grandchildren will come. That's not the case, is it? 10, 20 years is a reasonable time frame to see significant change in this landscape we just visited this morning.

David: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, some of the trees we were walking around this morning, the beautiful silver birches, which looked like a woodland, were 20 years old. And actually, it is incredible, actually, it doesn't take a huge amount of time for nature to recover.

Adam: Nile, last question. It's been an amazing life. It is an amazing life, perhaps a great life. Your third act? Hard to imagine what new things you could do, but do you, what are the, how do you see your future and what you want to spend that third act doing?

Nile: Wow, I'm doing so much now. I'm almost going back to where I started, which was with theatre performances that are more story-ented instead of just going out and playing a whole bunch of hit songs. I think I got super inspired completely accidentally. I wrote a song for Diana Ross years ago. And the first time I worked for the Prince's Trust, he said, now, my dear fellow, I wish I knew more of your music, everybody seems to love it so much. And then he became the King and he printed out his top 10 favorite songs. Number 3 was one of my songs. And he didn't realise it because, you know, the King, what have you got time to sit around and read, you know *laughs* And I said to him, I said, you know, Your Majesty, I promise you, you know some of my songs. But then his list comes out and my #3 song, I mean my song, Upside Down by Diana Ross is #3. He was like, that's one of my favorite songs, and there's a whole video that we put out of him sort of like doing his best dance to Upside Down. It's quite funny. I just thought that the one thing I've not really explored or worked hard on, I’m at the part of my life where I really do want to do all the music that I can do. And I want it to have the same effect as the pop music that I do. So I want my jazz music to make people feel good. So I did Candy Dulfer's last record and she's just unreal. So that's really, I think, where I want to be. And honestly, and I'm being very, very honest, I never keep track of any of this stuff. I did a conference a few weeks ago, and it was all these billionaires and all these tech guys and blah, blah, blah. And I said, you know, I did the biggest selling Madonna album in the world, we sold 10 million copies. All of my memories are from when I first heard this stuff. And somebody hollered out from the back of the room, 23 million copies, you know Nile, it keeps selling and keeps adding up. And I went, oh. In the first few weeks, we sold 10 million copies. And that's all I remember. And I move on to the next record and the next record and the next record. I had huge success with the last two Beyoncé records. But I've done that, and obviously you can see with Kygo, I continue to do that. That's never going to go away. But when I think in terms of full projects, it's going to be more theatrical and maybe more film.

David: There's about two things as well. There's one thing that you said to me before, which I think is just so great about the foundation, about how you want the foundation to be bigger than the song, which I think is a pretty epic aspiration there to have, the We Are Family Foundation and We Are Family the song, but I just think that's amazing to think around, the impact which has been achieved over twenty-five years and thinking about the years to come, and then secondly, because with your audience, Adam, we have so many obviously sort of people who love getting out on walks and nature. And my goodness, you won't be up as early as this guy doing his morning walks. And you definitely need to follow him on Instagram at a moment because he's on a roll doing sort of walks all over the world.

Nile: It's true. I love, you know, I wake up every morning very, very early. Right now, life and enjoying nature and being out in it is really exciting. Like when I was younger, being indoors, like I used to, there was a joke I used to say, I used to go to like clubs every night and go, ah the great indoors *all laugh*.

Adam: Well, look, a sample of how busy you are is I know you have other meetings to go to and other jobs to do, so I won't keep you anymore. Here's to the good times. Thank you very much indeed, both of you.

Nile: Thank you. I hope I wasn't too long-winded.

David: Thank you.

Adam: You were brilliant. It's a real treat to talk to you.

David: A pleasure.

Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you are listening. And do give us a review and a rating. If you want to find out more about our woods and those that are close to you, check out the Woodland Trust website. Just head to the Visiting Woods pages. Thank you.

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