Woodland Walks podcast

You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive.

Adam: Well, in today's episode of Woodland Walks, I'm off to see a man who invented the world's first distilled non-alcoholic drink. It was called Seedlip and effectively he created it in his kitchen and took it to 40 countries and in the process, I think it's fair to say, helped change the world of adult drinks and it certainly spurned lots of imitators, which you may well know. He also has a different mission. Really, I think it's fair to say his mission is now at least partly to involve the environment in much of what he does. He has, for instance, won two golds at the prestigious Chelsea Flower Show, and last year launched Pollen Projects, which aims to continue to disrupt the drinks industry, in particular though, by harnessing the flavour powers of trees. And that's something I suppose I've really never thought about. Anyway, so I met him at his farm, his home, his laboratory - they're all more or less the same thing - somewhere in Essex.

Ben: My name is Ben Branson. I'm the founder of Sylva.

Adam: Fantastic. So first of all, we've lots to talk about.

Ben: We do.

Adam: Because we are sitting in an amazing, is this a laboratory?

Ben: Yeah, I guess.

Adam: It doesn't feel like a laboratory, it feels something much more designery. It feels like a Porsche should be made here or something. Anyway, looking over an extraordinary landscape, and we're going to go for a walk through that. But first of all, would you tell me a little bit about what, I suppose, what's brought you here and your history and why, why you're doing what you're doing.

Ben: So I grew up on a farm and my family have been farming up in Lincolnshire for 320 years now. So that's nine generations and we're still farming. And I guess that meant I enjoyed a childhood largely outside and trees played a big part of that. Animals did, fields, produce, and hard work, I guess, not from me, but from my family.

Adam: Right. So did you ever work on the farm?

Ben: I did, yeah. And I would spend summers...

Adam: So you got your hands dirty?

Ben: Yeah, I would spend summers sitting on a tractor or going and sitting with my grandfather on a combine.

Adam: Right. And you came to prominence for something completely different. I mean, not sheep or potatoes or anything, but the non-alcoholic drink called Seedlip. So briefly, how on earth did that happen?

Ben: Yeah, Seedlip was a, I guess, a series of sort of curious accidents.

Adam: I suppose we should pause, just tell, for those who don't know, what on earth we're talking about, what is Seedlip?

Ben: So Seedlip was the, or is, the world's first distilled non-alcoholic spirit.

Adam: Fine.

Ben: So botanicals, distilled. and made into various different blends that you could have with tonic or in a cocktail.

Adam: Will you get annoyed or too crude to describe it as a non-alcoholic gin?

Ben: Too crude in that it is illegal to describe it as a non-alcoholic gin now *both laugh*

Adam: Oh okay, not just too crude! Okay, incorrect. But okay, in my mind, I saw it as a...

Ben: Akin to.

Adam: Akin to.

Ben: In that, in that world of a clear, botanical-driven liquid.

Adam: Fine. So we know what it is.

Ben: We know what it is. I've never worked for somebody else's drinks business before. I've never worked in manufacturing. Yeah, I learned how to distill ingredients partly through YouTube, partly through a book that was originally published in 1651. I have a 1664 copy of here called The Art of Distillation that details apothecaries' experiments for herbal remedies using distillation. So I, this started with me growing herbs at home and down the rabbit warren of Wikipedia looking at different lists of ingredients.

Adam: So why did you want to do that?

Ben: Because I'm the kind of guy that has a collection of 4,000 1940s Penguin books. And I'm the kind of guy that learned how to do taxidermy in an ancient church on a family farm in Lincolnshire. And I'm the kind of guy that likes to tinker and experiment and go really deep into things that I'm interested in.

Adam: So it was just a, it wasn't, this wasn't, ‘I'm going to be a businessman’, you just fancied having a go?

Ben: Nothing to do with drinks. I was just curious.

Adam: Amazing.

Ben: And taking mint from my garden and then making a liquid that smells and tastes like that plant was really magical.

Adam: I mean, I don't want to talk about Seedlip a lot.

Ben: Me neither laughs

Adam: No, but just, I suppose, the last question on that, it must have come a point at which you've gone, this is a project in my garage to, hey, we could do this. How important was that? How significant a moment was that?

Ben: Yeah, so the two key turning points were one, driving into London to go out for dinner, obviously not drinking alcohol and being served the most disgusting, pink, fruity, sweet, horrible mocktail and thinking, why is it so difficult to get a decent option? That was one key moment. And the second key moment was I made 1,000 bottles of Seedlip two years after I'd started distilling and I thought they'd last six months and they sold out in Selfridges in three weeks. And that went from my kitchen to, yeah, 35 countries and set this movement alight, which is all part of, yeah, we're slowly meandering towards now where we've got to today.

Adam: So you sold that to Diageo?

Ben: I sold the majority of that to Diageo in 2019.

Adam: You own a bit of it.

Ben: Yes.

Adam: And now you're starting a new venture.

Ben: Yes.

Adam: Which is?

Ben: Which is a company called Pollen Projects that has two brands. Seasn, which is a pair of cocktail bitters. So people may know Angostura. Very intense, concentrated, strong liquids that transform your sparkling water or your cocktail. And then my favourite, favourite project, which is Sylva, which is all about trees and making aged non-alcoholic spirits.

Adam: So we'll talk about the trees, we’ll, let's go for a trip about that. But before we get into all of those specifics, I think I'm right in saying that you, one of the purposes, one of the sort of foundations of the work you do is a sort of purpose-led business. Again, is that a fair description?

Ben: Absolutely.

Adam: And the business talks about that. Now, I'm a business journalist. It's now ubiquitous for businesses to go, we're purpose-led and we feel we're strong in the community. And one of the problems for journalists, and I think the public at large, is distinguishing between those who have some sort of genuine purpose here and those who feel we need to add that as our marketing strand.

Ben: Yeah.

Adam: Do you recognise that issue and if so, how do you overcome that? It must be very difficult to go, no no, I know everyone's saying this, but I really believe it.

Ben: I am very, very clear that the reason why I'm doing this is because this is a way in which I can express myself. This isn't work for me. This is how I express myself because it's what I'm interested in. I'm very interested in trees and I'm incredibly curious and I really want to learn. And so I believe that trees are this most incredible, underestimated source of flavour, as well as all the other wonderful things that we already know about trees. And I want people to love trees. And so that is, if I can make a product that meets a need in people's lives and tastes delicious and they want to drink again, that for me is a real win-win rather than, I don't know, any other kind of business purposes or made-up, I'm really clear, like half of this is really selfish.

Adam: Selfish in what way?

Ben: In the sense that I want to keep working with trees. And I want to explore trees in my working life rather than it being a hobby at the weekends.

Adam: And is it about that? Is it about like, I like trees and I want to work in the environment and it's great because I've got a sort of commercial reason to do that. Is there something, I get that, is there something also about social purpose, about feeling that the business should do some good or not? I don't mean to judge it in either way because it's perfectly fine for business not to do that.

Ben: Sure. I think it's baked in. Seedlip, Sylva, Seasn. Someone said to me, probably about 12 months ago, they're born good. They don't have any alcohol in them. They are there to offer choice and they are there to include people. That's already baked in, in terms of the product. And so, yeah, there's lots of details we have with Sylva of some of the environmental credentials around our packaging or what we do with our waste, all that, but they are sort of below the surface, as it were. Ultimately, we want people to have a delicious drink and a great option and great choice.

Adam: And how important do you think the public feel that sort of role for companies? It feels to me that certainly since COVID, there was a bigger demand for the public to hear companies stand up for something. Do you see that or do you think that was there and has gone away or what's your view on that?

Ben: I, or we, are big believers that our brands or the company should have a point of view and part of your company having a point of view is how you're positioned in the market and against your competitors and ultimately what makes you unique and different.

Adam: The weather's been so good to us, so I don't want to stay in too long. But I suppose the last question, I read other interviews you've done talking about other business leaders who've inspired you. Who and why?

Ben: So David Hieatt was one of the team behind howies jeans. And then he went on to, he's a Welshman, he moved back to Wales to a town that used to be famous for making jeans. And over a, I don't know, 10, 12 year period, he got that town making jeans again. And those jeans were typically worn by lots of creative people. I hate jeans, so I never bought a pair.

Adam: Sorry, here I am wearing a pair of jeans, you should have said. *both laugh*

Ben: I just hate wearing them. I hate wearing them. And I just followed, I can't even remember how I came across him. I followed his work. He then, I was amazed to be included in one of his, he calls them mavericks and makers. I was included in one of his lists of people doing interesting things. And then I was invited to give a talk at his sort of cult following retreat called the Do Lectures.

Adam: The Do Lectures?

Ben: The Do Lectures. And it's an amazing retreat on a farm in Wales. Everyone's sort of in wigwams and you kind of, you're in this old, old barn giving this, giving this talk. And I sort of plucked up a bit of courage to actually talk to him, but was quite starstruck actually. And I've just followed his writing and and he came out with a brilliant phrase that we used or adopted or adapted, which was Hiut Denim was an ideas company that made jeans. And I loved that. And we adapted that for Seedlip to be a nature company that made drinks. And I've adapted it again for Sylva to be a tree company that makes drinks. And so we are not just our product and the thing that we make, I guess. So David is, he's a wonderful writer, great thinker, and yeah, I love him.

Adam: Okay, brilliant. Which is a good point. You raised the trees, which is why we're here. Let's go hug some.

Ben: That's the most important room. That's the wood room.

Adam: Okay, so this is, right. Sorry, what's the dog called?

Ben: The dog is Pesto.

Adam: Pesto, enormous Pesto. Enormous Pesto. So we're in a shed. That's an ultrasound you can hear in the background, which Ben will explain why. So you've got bits of wood with numbers on, so you're just trying out, oh, so you chipped up the wood?

Ben: Yeah, we chip up the wood, that's plum.

Adam: Right.

Ben: So everything's from the UK. That'll be probably apple... So we process all the wood here.

Adam: Right. And then, okay, so we can hear the ultrasound next door. So you've got lots of chips of apple, let's say. You dry it out in a domestic oven. You've got a couple of ovens. The point of putting it in this ultrasound is what?

Ben: Yeah, so we want to extract the flavour and the character from the wood. So we distill grain in the lab where we just were. And then we fill a keg with the wood chips and the grain distilled. So you've got liquid and wood together. We add lots of oxygen to that to make it a really rich environment. And then we put it in our ultrasound machine.

Adam: And the ultrasound does what?

Ben: And the ultrasound gets into the wood and forces out all of the aromatic compounds. So we're talking esters, the tannins, the colour, all the bits that taste yummy, we take out, and that's cycling on 28,000 kilohertz ultrasound at temperature for varying different amounts of time.

Adam: And then you have a liquid.

Ben: Then we have a liquid.

Adam: Which has got flavours in it.

Ben: Exactly. And then we're separating the wood from the liquid, and we want all the wonderful flavour from the wood to go into the grain liquid.

Adam: And is that literally just, well, I've got a bit of liquid, I'm going to add a bit of flavour to that? Is that sort of...

Ben: Yeah, I mean, this process for me started 14 years ago. There's nobody in the world doing this. I've had to basically develop and create a whole production process.

Adam: Wow, amazing.

Ben: I'm interested in the whole tree, yeah, and what flavour is there in different parts of the tree, different ages of tree, different growing conditions of trees. I mean, the scope when there's 73,000 tree species is enormous.

Adam: So you've got that...

Ben: And then we have silver walnut, which was a very small, we only made 300 bottles. All of the wood comes from here. And that was a real, I wanted to try and capture kind of the forest in winter, so a dormant forest. And that uses black walnut wood, sweet chestnut wood, elm wood. We had an elm tree fall down and so we took some of that. And then we sourced some reindeer moss, which is actually a lichen from Scotland. And so, yeah, silver walnut, which comes in packaging made of the forest floor. So mycelium, you get a couple of glasses.

Adam: So are you never cutting down a tree? Are you taking bits of it?

Ben: I'm not saying we're never cutting down a tree, but we are being very choiceful with how we source and where it comes from. And look, trees are falling down all the time.

Adam: Yeah, no, I understand.

Ben: And we don't need to... Yeah, we can, basically, we can use a very small amount of wood for a lot of bottles.

Adam: And what happens, so you get all this wood, you've chipped it up, you're extracting all the flavours, now you have a lot of wood without any flavour in it. So what happens to all that stuff?

Ben: So the spent wood, two things. One, at the moment, because we are small and new and kind of figuring out what we're doing, everything goes back to the forest. So to compost, back to the forest floor.

Adam: You just spread it around?

Ben: Yeah. What we'd, I mean, we can use it as mulch in the orchard. What we'd love to do is, you know, I know we could dry that wood out and make incense from it, for example. I know that we could dry that wood out and make a surface. And there are lots of, there is terrazzo type products called ferrazzo.

Adam: I don't know what those are.

Ben: Terrazzo is the, you'll see it, it's speckly kitchen surfaces that have got bits of ceramics and yeah, well, somebody's launched ferrazzo with bits of wood in.

Adam: *laughs* Okay fair enough.

Ben: So yeah, I think there's a lot that we could do in the future. We can't eat wood, because our bodies can't process lignin. But in terms of, yeah, the afterlife of what happens when we've extracted the flavour and the colour, there's going to be options.

Adam: So this whole area of using trees for a drink, I've not, I mean, I'm ignorant of loads of stuff, so maybe this is common and I just don't know about it, but how novel is this?

Ben: It's, if you think about maple syrup, birch water, we've tapped trees for a long time. And then you think about aged alcoholic spirits, specifically whisky, I guess. And then you think...

Adam: And oaked wines.

Ben: And oaked wines. Or you think about barbecued food, smoked food. We actually do have this connection and a lot of history in terms of the flavour and power of wood for things that we kind of consume. But in non-alcoholic drinks, yeah, not in the process that we're using or to the breadth of trees that we're working with.

Adam: It's quite primal in a way, the way you describe it there. You can imagine early cooking would have taken place on wood, wouldn't it?

Ben: Yes, yes.

Adam: So, and then we go, oh, actually that tastes quite nice, that sort of woody flavour to it.

Ben: I liken it to, or the picture I have, the most perfect rose-tinted picture I have in my mind is, I am sat by a fire, a wood fire, on a wooden chair, at a wooden table, with a piece of paper, and a pen that uses oak gall ink.

Adam: Right, yeah.

Ben: And I am drinking, probably from a wooden vessel, some Sylva.

Adam: OK.

Ben: And that is, you know, that's kind of, that's pretty heavenly, I think, in my head.

Adam: Have you ever...

Ben: Here’s a sweet chestnut tree.

Adam: Have you ever written with oak gall?

Ben: I haven't. Have you?

Adam: Yes.

Ben: Have you! And?

Adam: Yeah, I mean... *both laugh* We just did it in the forest, so I'm sure you can improve the quality of the ink. But it is extraordinary that you go, I think, I could have got this wrong, but I think Shakespeare wrote with oak gall.

Ben: Absolutely. A thousand years of printing history.

Adam: Yeah, I mean, it is extraordinary and it sort of worked. You know, it wasn't great, but then we didn't know what we were doing. So it is interesting that you just go, take that off the tree, grind that up, let's write. And you go, it worked. That's extraordinary that that worked at all, really. So yeah, yeah. both laugh

Ben: All because of a little wasp. I mean, it's kind of... Yeah, it is it is wild.

Adam: Amazing. So I know you're running a business and this is both your home and then the business and whatever, but what do you think about the environmental debate? We live in interesting times where, I mean, even really recently, people have been talking about moving to net zero and then lots of very serious political figures talking about, well, no, that's actually not going to work and stepping back from commitments to electric cars, and I think politicians are doing that partly because they feel there isn't the public support for the costs of supporting the environment. What's your take on all this?

Ben: I've been probably a few, maybe three, four years ago, I was really hopeful. I think there was some real energy behind COP and there was some just, there was, it felt like there was just a lot happening. And then the last couple of years, I guess, I felt less hopeful in terms of the, sustainability has lost its edge and lost, maybe just lost being a priority. Or we've got bored of it or lots of things have been set up which are brilliant and there is a bit of lack of interest from the public. Or we've stopped worrying so much about the future of the environment because other things have come in for us to worry about.

Adam: Right, so you think we have a limited scope for worrying and that's full?

Ben: Yeah, I do. So I don't know, I kind of, you know, and it's obviously it’s incredibly geopolitical and dependent on the time in terms of who's in charge and therefore what energy this gets given and therefore what then seeps into the media, the narrative, the public discourse on this. And I can't speak for everybody, but if I had a sense, it would probably be, I'm doing my bit now. You told me I need to recycle this or turn this off or get an electric car or I don't know, like I'm doing that.

Adam: Yeah.

Ben: So what are you guys doing? You know, I don't know. Not that I'm not hopeful, but I feel like the sentiment has become less hopeful.

Adam: You think these things change?

Ben: Absolutely. I mean, look at the, yeah, I, if I... hold on to the last 10 years of seeing our attitudes towards alcohol and the non-alcoholic drinks options to now where we are, things can change.

Adam: Yeah. It is interesting. I mean, which way? Because we've got...

Ben: I just wanted to draw this wonderful oak tree to your attention.

Adam: Oh I see, yes. This is something from Harry Potter, the great whomping willow.

Ben: The whomping willow.

Adam: That's right, yeah, which it’s not a willow, but go on.

Ben: So our woodpecker...

Adam: Oh, yes, look at that.

Ben: Look at that. I mean, absolutely perfect, perfect hole. So this oak tree, probably at least 400 years old and struck by lightning last year.

Adam: Wow, is that what the damage we're seeing?

Ben: This natural char.

Adam: Yeah, I was going to say, we can see this very charred bit of it. Gosh, and there’s bits fallen down, is that from the lightning strike?

Ben: This is what we've taken down.

Adam: Oh, you've taken that down.

Ben: So that is naturally charred. So to me that is...

Adam: Ahh, is that flavour?

Ben: Yeah.

Adam: Everyone else goes, oh my God, the tree got hit by lightning. Ben rushes out and goes, fantastic, a new flavour!

Ben: I am, that takes me to A, we've got some of that back at the lab. So we've, we've seen what it tastes like, which is wonderful. B, this is what barrels do to the, you know, it's what they do to the inside of a barrel, they char it. And 3, I start thinking, how can you engineer lightning to strike wood?

Adam: Right.

Ben: Not a tree, but wood.

Adam: Right, okay.

Ben: To create this natural char.

Adam: Okay, amazing. So we might see that in a drink sometime soon.

Ben: *laughs* Yeah, we love we love this tree.

Adam: You also run, well not run, you present a podcast about ADHD. Is that correct?

Ben: I set up a neurodiversity charity two years ago following my autism and ADHD diagnosis. And yeah, we set up a podcast called The Hidden 20% where on a weekly basis I sit down with everything from neuroscientists to top researchers, psychologists, celebrities, people running neurodiversity charities. And yeah, we kind of try and get to the truth.

Adam: And you having ADHD, is that significant for you?

Ben: It's significant in the sense that I didn't know that I was autistic and ADHD until I was 39. That's quite significant, and that's been a big learning.

Adam: But whether it was diagnosed or had a label or whatever, is sort of separate from what I was trying to ask, you must have noticed some characteristics?

Ben: Oh, I was the last to know, apparently.

Adam: Right. You didn't feel, or even looking back on it now, you don't feel that your ADHD has had some sort of influence on what you've done?

Ben: It's my brain, so it absolutely has influenced everything that I've done. But given that I saw my first psychiatrist when I was 8, and I've seen multiple psychologists, psychiatrists, you know, I've been in rehab in my early 20s, and no one ever, ever had talked about autism, ADHD. And so to get to 39, and I'm not alone, unfortunately, and a huge amount of people who've been missed, because we thought it was only little boys.

Adam: Right. Do you think it's been, whatever challenges or difficulties that's brought, in looking in retrospect, do you think it's brought some positives as well?

Ben: Oh, I think one of the biggest challenges around people and understanding or having more understanding around neurodiversity is that it's not all bad and that it's not a disease. And there are huge, you know, I have, I'm a synesthete, so I can taste colour and I see flavour and colour.

Adam: Ok so that’s a very clear benefit isn’t it!

Ben: Really helpful. I have a pretty photographic memory, which is incredibly helpful when you're analysing or trying to memorise lots of different plants or trees and behaviour around how a tree performs.

Adam: Seems to me you're also very focused. Is that fair?

Ben: Very focused.

Adam: And that's often a symptom, isn't it, super focus?

Ben: Yeah, so we talk about, in ADHD, people talk about hyper-focus. And in autism, people talk about special interests.

Adam: Right.

Ben: And I have both of those *laughs*. And trees, so trees is my special interest and being ADHD allows me to hyper-focus on that. I'm only learning that I can harness it and use it and I have a really good understanding of how my brain works now and that's massively empowering.

Adam: Okay, brilliant. All right. Well, you've taken us on a circuit. We're back to, not the shed, that's a terrible...

Ben: The lab.

Adam: The barn. Very nice barn. So shall we go back in? Is there something to taste?

Ben: Yeah, I think we should have a drink.

Adam: I shouldn't leave without tasting it. Brilliant.

Ben: No *laughs* You can go and see all this apple wood as well.

Adam: Oh yeah. Oh look, the apple wood van is leaving. So has he deposited his apple wood? Yes. Okay, that was quick. So while Ben prepared some rather nice non-alcoholic tree tipples for us, I wanted to take this opportunity of thanking you for joining us on this particular podcast. And wherever you are and whenever you do it, I wanted to wish you from all of us, to all of you, some very happy wanderings.

Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you are listening. And do give us a review and a rating. If you want to find out more about our woods and those that are close to you, check out the Woodland Trust website. Just head to the Visiting Woods pages. Thank you.

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