Minutes of the APPG meeting 9 December 2024
Attendees
Parliamentary: Alex Mayer MP (Lab, Dunstable and Leighton Buzzard) (chair); Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab) (vice chair); Earl of Caithness (Con); Lord Carrington (crossbench); Roz Savage MP (Lib Dem, South Cotswolds); James Naish MP, (Lab, Rushcliffe); Amelia Evans on behalf of Sir Desmond Swayne MP (Con, New Forest West); Matthew Cowley on behalf of Blake Stephenson MP, (Con, Mid-Bedfordshire).
External: Dr Darren Moorcroft, Emma Hardie, Joe Piercy, Jon Stokes.
Minutes
Darren Moorcroft, CEO of the Woodland Trust, opened the meeting by talking about how grateful he was for the opportunities the APPG provided. He also talked about Baroness Young of Old Scone’s Heritage Trees Bill, how the UK was unusual amongst European countries regarding the number of surviving ancient trees we have, and how the Sycamore Gap tree felling case brought public attention to the lack of adequate protections for culturally important trees.
Joe Piercy, lead government affairs officer for the Woodland Trust, then explained the goals of the Trust’s Living Legends campaign, to introduce better legal protections for ancient trees and official guidelines to help with their preservation.
Joe talked about the current limitations of Tree Preservation Orders (TPOs), the National Planning Policy Framework (NPPF), and how the current rule regarding 'wholly exceptional circumstances' allowing tree fellings was poorly defined and irregularly applied. He talked about his Woodland Trust colleague Martin Hugi’s ancient tree pilgrimage and the discovery that several of the ancient trees he’d planned to visit had been lost.
Joe Piercy also showed two case studies from Forestry England where one ancient tree had been specifically signposted and protected, and another had been destroyed, reflecting a lack of consistent guidance.
Joe talked about tree protection measures in other European countries, specifically citing Poland as an example of good practice, where the Government designated heritage trees as 'National Green Monuments'.
Joe talked about a Woodland Trust research trip to Poland and what tree protection measures exist in other countries, like Poland’s 'National Green Monuments'. He then highlighted that Baroness Young’s Heritage Trees Bill had been designed along these lines and was in the system and ready to be enacted on the statute book.
Joe Piercy briefly touched on the Sycamore Gap felling, and how it influenced public opinion. YouGov polling showed support for greater legal protection for ancient trees slightly increased from 83% to 86% after the felling. He also talked about the great success of the Living Legends petition and the hand in to 10 Downing Street after it hit 100,000 signatures.
A parliamentarian asked who was sponsoring the Heritage Trees Bill. Baroness Young explained that while the Bill had had its first reading, the distraction caused by a sudden general election caused it to end up in 'limbo', though DEFRA may now independently be working towards a similar goal. Baroness Young said she might be able to resubmit the bill for a second reading even if it’s not on the ballot if every other 2024 private members' bill managed to be discussed, but that she doesn’t think this is likely to happen.
Dr James Cooper, head of external affairs, Woodland Trust, pointed out that pieces of the Heritage Trees Bill could be reused to amend other pieces of legislation even if the bill itself never becomes law.
Jon Stokes, director of trees, Tree Council, began his own presentation. He briefly outlined what the Tree Council is, and his personal career history with ancient tree protection.
Jon Stokes talked about the Llangernyw Yew case that revealed the importance of recognising and recording ancient trees, and the Tree Council’s Great British Trees project undertaken twenty years earlier to record some of them. He also talked about discussions with the National Lottery Heritage Fund at this time regarding whether it was worth funding ancient tree protection, and the support the Tree Council had received from the now King Charles III on this matter.
Jon Stokes then talked about the Heritage Trees Revisited Project undertaken recently with the Woodland Trust. It found that of the trees visited, only 124 or 43% were deemed 'secure'. 113 ancient trees were either under severe threat or had died at some point in the last twenty years. He pointed out a similar loss or degradation of cathedrals or Grade I listed buildings in this timeframe would have caused great public outcry.
Jon Stokes went on to explain the kinds of threats ancient trees were facing. He pointed out that even trees recorded as 'secure' could still be under a level of threat, and that only 41% of the 124 secure trees had a Tree Preservation Order.
Jon Stokes talked about the importance of Baroness Young’s Heritage Trees Bill, and also of the importance of changing the culture around how landowners with ancient trees on their property are treated. He highlighted that when ancient trees are lost it is more commonly because landowners lacked the correct information and support and didn’t understand how best to protect the tree, not due to deliberate destruction or malice.
Jon Stokes then talked about the fact DEFRA had asked for a review of this topic and that a report was due to go into DEFRA that week. He asked anyone present with connections to DEFRA to press them on what the results of the report were.
Jon Stokes then talked about the importance of creating a record of 'listed' ancient trees that most need protecting to help with prioritisation when allocating resources. He emphasised that good intent can still lead to bad practice and that landowners needed to be given good advice and more resources to help them manage ancient trees on their land.
Jon Stokes once again encouraged attendees to talk to DEFRA about these issues.
Alex Mayer, Labour MP for Dunstable and Leighton Buzzard and meeting chair, started the round table discussion.
A member of the House of Lords asked if the Farming in Protected Landscapes (FIPL) programme included any guidance on ancient trees. Jon Stokes explained that it’s a good scheme overall but didn’t include anything specific on trees.
An MP asked how parliamentarians could best show their support. A member of the House of Lords suggested asking questions in parliament to put pressure on DEFRA to take action. Darren Moorcroft added that the Living Legends petition hitting 100,000 signatures indicates the huge public support for providing better legal protection for heritage trees.
A member of the House of Lords shared their concern that the recent changes to inheritance tax laws mean people may fail to sell and protect woodland. Darren Moorcroft explained that the Woodland Trust is advising both the Government and farmers on this issue, and that there was a diversity of views amongst farmers. Dr James Cooper pointed out that many different organisations within the environmental sector had written to the Government about the wider issues farmers are facing.
The Chair asked if the recent changing weather and increase in storms and strong winds is a risk to ancient trees. Jon Stokes confirmed that this is a risk, however he personally viewed ash dieback as a much greater threat.
Baroness Young talked about the importance of getting at risk trees onto some sort of list as soon as possible. Jon Stokes responded to this by explaining one of the reasons this hasn’t already happened is a cultural perception of trees lacking worth, but that after twenty years of working in the sector he feels like DEFRA’s attitude might be open to change this year and called for support to help make this happen.
Darren Moorcroft called for integrating aspects of tree protection into the new planning bill.
Baroness Young highlighted the importance of knowing the location of ancient trees in light of the new National Planning Policy Framework, especially those that are close to planned developments. She stated that she thought we could have both houses and trees with the right planning.
Alex Mayer asked if we had any examples of an ancient tree being valued and put at the centre of a development. Jon Stokes talked about a Petersfield Premier Inn site where the location of a planned McDonalds was moved to protect an ancient oak tree, after tree protection officers volunteered to protect the oak and a legal challenge was raised against the planned felling. The hotel is now named after the tree.
Darren Moorcroft used Poland as a positive example of an area with strong tree protection laws where building developments still take place.
Dr James Cooper pointed out that if it’s possible for Poland to strike this balance with 40% tree coverage it should be possible for the UK to do the same with 13%.
Darren Moorcroft talked about how COP30 will focus on forests, and that if we pass laws now the UK can demonstrate leadership in this area.
An MP asked about how buildings become listed, and the English Heritage process was explained. Baroness Young explained the plan for listing trees laid out in her bill.
Baroness Young also suggested that if DEFRA doesn’t produce a list of trees that someone else should produce their own.
Jon Stokes suggested royal support could be useful in this area and talked about a potential 'King’s List'.
Baroness Young also suggested that given there was a lot of distrust towards the Government from landowners in the current climate a non-governmental list might get a better reception.
Darren Moorcroft talked about the pride landowners have about ancient trees on their property, and emphasised that malpractice is often due to ignorance rather than malice. He also talked about support from the world-famous musician, Nile Rodgers and how this sends a good message to a wider audience than usual.
Jon Stokes talked about the contrast between the detailed advice owners of listed ancient buildings get and the lack of advice given about trees.
A member of the House of Lords talked about an example where a new footpath was put too close to an ancient tree and damaged it. Jon Stokes described how he’d talked to the landowner in question and discovered the groundsman had made a mistake from a simple lack of knowledge and the footpath was moved.
Darren Moorcroft talked about the risk that good, experienced advice is often one of the first things to be lost during budget allocation.
Darren Moorcroft closed the APPG, thanking everyone for coming and emphasising that this is an important time for these decisions about ancient trees to be made, and shared other important dates.